Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Can This Be True ?

Via Civitas, this from the Herald Tribune :

LONDON: Britain is funding a curriculum aimed at teaching Muslim children in madrassas how to steer clear of extremism, but some of the lessons are raising eyebrows among Muslim educators.

One lesson plan goes something like this: A group of Islamic extremists want to buy fertilizer that could be used to make a bomb. Should the shop keeper sell it to them, even if she suspects it will be used for "holy war?" Or take Ahmad, whose jihadi friends want to attack a local supermarket in retaliation for the war in Iraq. Is it right for Ahmad to harm innocent Britons just because their government invaded a Muslim country?

The curriculum's answer in both cases is no, but the fact that these scenarios are being considered at all has prompted concern among Muslim educators, who question whether they are appropriate for young students.

Some also feel insulted that the program appears to make the assumption that madrassas — or Muslim religious schools — are teeming with budding terrorists. "In an educational setting, those propositions are a bit stark," said Tahir Alam, chair of the Muslim Council of Britain's education committee.

The British government acknowledged that the curriculum raised sensitive issues, but said they were needed to give Muslims the practical skills they needed to reject extremism. "The project ensures that young Muslim students learn the true teachings of Islam," said a spokeswoman for the Department of Communities and Local Government, while speaking on condition of anonymity in line with government policy. "There will be difficult issues and scenarios to discuss — but it would be wrong to shy away from them," she said.

Ten Muslim clerics have been teaching the lessons in six madrassas and a school in Bradford — a religiously diverse city about 200 miles (320 kilometers) north of London. About 500 students have already completed the course, versions of which the communities department hopes to roll out nationally.


Hmm. Since when were the Department of Communities and Local Government competent to pronounce on the true teachings of Islam ?

The project, called "Nasiha," or "guidance," draws on the Quran, Shariah law, and traditional Muslim scholarship to show that British laws are in harmony with Islamic values. Its lessons will be taught in madrassas, which in Britain are usually unregulated after-school programs based in mosques or private homes. The stated objective is to teach children, most between the ages of eight and 14, "to realize that to harm or terrorize citizens in the UK is not something permitted in Islam," and "to be able to identify individuals or groups who preach hatred and learn ways of avoiding them."


I hate to suggest this. But what if it should ever happen - and God forbid - that some British laws aren't in harmony with Islamic values ? Presumably all bets are off at that point.

It looks to me as if the British Government are engaging with the theorists of jihad on the jihadists own terms - arguing that the laws must be obeyed not because in a democracy you obey the laws, but because they can be shown to be in line with Islamic teaching. In itself this is a defeat for democracy - a sign that the government seem to be giving up the idea that Britain's Muslims are bound by the obligations which apply to other people. It's a kind of weird parallel with the BNP. They (BNP) think Muslims won't obey the law if it clashes with Islam. The government think they can't even reasonably be expected to.

22 comments:

Ross F said...

The blog of Civitas's offshoot, the Centre for Social Cohesion, had a good post about this last week:

making the Koran the authoritative basis for securing from young British Muslims their loyalty and commitment to the core values of this country runs the risk of making it easier rather than harder for them to be radicalised by Muslim preachers, teachers and peers ... who can... find within that very same text all that they need to convince any impressionable young Muslim that what it really calls for is not civility and loyalty to any non-Muslim country in which they may find themselves residing, but jihad.

verity said...

It looks to me as if the British Government are engaging with the theorists of jihad on the jihadists own terms.

S-o-o-o ... somthing new here?

Tony Blair has engaged with aspirationally violent muslims for 10 years. He and Elena - oops! - Cherieeee - adore them because the islamics hate our beloved country and anything that serves to rend our ancient civilisation asunder is a worthy tool.

Such a fund-raiser (funds for Tony, that is) notion in Saudi Arabia and, uh, Libya. Future "talks". Future foundations. Who knows where all this can lead, eh Moammar? You're a rich fellah, innit?

Frankly, Moammar, and I'm not shittin' ya, but your name in lights (which would be turned off on Fridays, out of respec') would look great on a big concrete building in London.

How many stories high? You name it, mah main man! (I love talking American, although it makes me look like a prat, frankly.)

Frankly, and I do not want to look as though I'm currying favours here (although I love curry and Cherieeeee loves saris although they make her look like a pig), but I have been disturbed by the lack of islamic expertise in the House of Lords.

I look forward to your early response. (Don't send emails.)

Martin said...

Laban,

Without being facetious, one rather thinks jihad against a supermarket would be waged by concerted attempts to empty its shelves of Mad Dog and White Lightning.

Bradford said...

You may find Laban that this idea started in Nab Wood....which is where Kelly visited a week or so ago ......

JuliaM said...

"Since when were the Department of Communities and Local Government competent to pronounce on the true teachings of Islam?"

You know, that sentence makes just as much sense if you omit the '..to pronounce on the true teachings of Islam ?' bit...

verity said...

Juliam - V good!

I would like to see islam in its current form banned as a dangerous cult,which it is. People who wanted to follow a reformed islam - reformed by British legislators, that is; I don't trust these people - should be able to do so. The religion as it stands now should be illegal.

Anonymous said...

What a load of crap you have written.

Everything could equally be applied to christians that believe homosexuality and abortion are sins. Just because the law ALLOWs such things does not mean that Muslims or Christians are duty bound to blow up people that have abortions. And let's face it, they don't. Cars are far better and ending the scourge of pedestrianism than Muslims are at ending the scourge of secularism, so when are you going to start writing about how something must be done about car drivers and their evil ways?

verity said...

Anonymous - I don't blame you for posting your drivel anonymously. Muslim names don't go down well on British blogs.

Some Christians and some Jews - few and far between these days, but still, there are some, I grant you - believe homosexuality is a sin. This is fading out as scientific evidence points to it being a condition which develops in the womb - before anyone has a free choice of anything.

Homosexuality is a conditon of birth. Abortion is a deed. Lumping the two together highlights the intellectual paucity of your argument.

Cars? I know that some men treat cars almost as a religion, but it's just for fun. Car drivers do not intentionally cause other drivers and pedestrians to die. Were you trying to suggest that they do? There's a world of difference between a keen interest in a hobby and the mind control of a cult.

Car driver are not committed to forcing the entire world to worship cars. In fact, car drivers wish other drivers would lose their enthusiasm for driving thus leaving the roads emptier for themselves.

Islam, as you know, is committed to forcing the entire world into worshipping this allah construct. They indoctrinate very young minds. They have prayers five times a day, meaning during every waking hour, they are planning to go to prayers, actually praying, or returning from prayers. Every waking minute is engaged in planning for prayers. This, again, is criminal indoctrination and should be against the law.

Car drivers, homosexuals and women who have had abortions don't commit mass murder; don't blow up aeroplanes; don't kidnap innocent people and behead them on TV; don't preach murder of people who don't acknowledge their diety; don't believe that a woman's testimony in court is worth exactly half that of the testimony of someone with male genitals; or that her face should never been seen by other men outside the family; or that she should never shake hands with a man.

This is a cult of control,not a religion, and I would like to see it outlawed. If you want to work on reforming it to our satisfaction, fine. If you don't, then go somewhere where people think islam is normal.

Mohammad was the L Ron Hubbard of his day.

Voyager said...

Everything could equally be applied to Christians that believe homosexuality and abortion are sins


but the ARE and Muslims and Jews AGREE on this....

Voyager said...

This is fading out as scientific evidence points to it being a condition which develops in the womb - before anyone has a free choice of anything.

There is NO such scientific evidence .....but there is evidence the people who blow up planes or murder people might have psychiatric illnesses

AntiCitizenOne said...

There's evidence that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be homosexual.

This could be because the womb becomes more and more unfriendly to male sperm. This might be explained by selfish gene theory whereby this is a strategy for maximising the number of genes passed on by the mother.

There's also a theory that male gay -likelihood genes might increase fertility/promiscuity in females hence it's continued presence in the gene pool.ksawd

verity said...

AnticitizenOne - There is plenty of evidence that, during a crucial few weeks of gestation, if a woman, for whatever reason, starts producing extra estrogen, or is aking medication that contains estrogen, for a few weeks, this will inhibit, to some extent, the development of (is it the right side?) the masculine brain. It's an early science, but it does seem to form in the womb to various degrees. You get gay firefighters and military men, and you also get drag queens. So who knows? But people are born that way; it isn't learned. Across all the races,it's around a steady 4%, so it is a natural incidence in the human race.

verity said...

Unlike islam.

JuliaM said...

"Cars? I know that some men treat cars almost as a religion..."

Hey, it's not just men! I'm probably an atheist myself, but I worship at the wheels of my 4.0 litre Jeep Grand Cherokee (it ticks off the envirofascists so beautifully....)

"What a load of crap you have written."

Ah, what a beautifully thought out, well reasoned argument. CiF is over there, go play with your intellectual equals...

"There's also a theory that male gay -likelihood genes might increase fertility/promiscuity in females hence it's continued presence in the gene pool."

How interesting! I hadn't heard that theory, though I do recall the 'older brothers' bit making the news a while back.

Voyager said...

There's evidence that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be homosexual.

Oh, and what form does this evidence take ? Sample Size ? R2 ?

There is plenty of evidence that, during a crucial few weeks of gestation, if a woman, for whatever reason, starts producing extra estrogen, or is aking medication that contains estrogen, for a few weeks, this will inhibit, to some extent, the development of (is it the right side?) the masculine brain. It's an early science,

References + Peer Reviews ?

You put it all down to generic deformities then ?

Voyager said...

You put it all down to genetic deformities then ?

verity said...

No. I don't put it down to anything because I'm not a physiologist or geneticist. In fact, I don't believe there's any "it" to put down.

The incidence of homosexuality seems to be pretty consistent across all the races. Therefore, it is something that happens to 4% (more or less) of humans across the board. It's not cultural and its not racially specific.

However, we shouldn't forget that islamics believe it should be "punished" - punishment for something which happened to this individual in the womb - by death. In islam, all that counts is breeding warriors for allah.

Anonymous said...

I thought things were bad, but I didn't know they were so bad that this pathetic multiculti rabble are panicked into producing this stuff. Twenty years ago, even ten, it might have worked. Too late now.

verity said...

Anonymous 8:57 - What stuff? Care to share?

Could you even let us know what you're referring to? Your little comment is off with the fairies unless you can anchor it to a topic.

Anonymous said...

"Car drivers, homosexuals and women who have had abortions don't commit mass murder"

And what proportion of the 1billion Muslims on this planet do these things? As a proportion of this total the few that do are almost negligible.

Unless, the apparently not-so anonymous "verity" also believes that all Irish people are evil because some are members of the IRA, all British people are Nazis because some are members of the BNP and all vegetarians are potential murderers because some animal rights protestors have been known to poison supermarket food.

Meanwhile Catholic convent schools continue to brainwash young girls into believing that their place is in the home and if they misbehave an angel of the Lord will come down and punich them but no-one refers to them as a dangerous cult.

The Islamists are no worse than you Verity - only different.

Laban said...

"Catholic convent schools continue to brainwash young girls into believing that their place is in the home and if they misbehave an angel of the Lord will come down and punish them"

If only. The truth is for good or ill very different.

verity said...

Anonymous - You write rubbish on stilts because you know nothing about me. You know as little about me as I know about the Irish. Take that as a big fat zero. Only knew all this as wallpaper.

So your first point's a clunker because you are so dimwitted that you made foolish assumptions.

If there are indeed, 1bn muslims in the world - muslim of their own free will and not under threats from "imams" of death, rape or hanging off something high for being homosexual - how does this compute with your silly attacks on me?

"Meanwhile Catholic convent schools continue to brainwash young girls into believing that their place is in the home and if they misbehave an angel of the Lord will come down and punich them but no-one refers to them as a dangerous cult."

Could you give us the name of the convent school, please? Otherwise you're fantasising in that frightened male muslim way. Give us the name of the school.

"The Islamists are no worse than you Verity - only different." Typical islamic fantasy. Think of the six non-flying imams out of Minneapolis who are now trying to get their fellow passengers on the plane - which never took off - arrested and punished for reporting them as suspicious. They want it made illegal to alert airlines to suspicious behaviour by people dressed up in islamic fancy dress and who make weird demands - like extra-wide seatbelts, when they are normal-sized people.

That makes them different from me. And my civilisation, which has invented everything (I give the Chinese gunpowder, bog roll and other important things that I can't remember just now, but civilised) you islamics need to keep your show on the road. Not one of you has invented anything.

Ever. Unless you count the assumption that tiny little daughters of the age of nine are at "the age of consent". That's different from the rest of humanity.